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I was talking to a longtime reader of romances a couple of weeks ago, and she told me that she was finding books sort of “meh” these days. One of the problems, she thought, was that the heroes were too “nice.”
Now, “nice” is right up there with “likeable” as a word that is totally subjective. Your “nice” may not be my “nice.” It seemed that her “nice” was becoming very common in romances, and she felt it was taking some zing out of the books. This was especially true of historicals, where all of those dukes and other peers would probably have had an arrogance to them that would not fit under the “nice” description. She felt the heroes were getting too beta for her, is the best I understood it.
It is really clear if you read reader reveiws that the “nice” factor plays a big role in reader satisfaction. Normally one sees it from the other perspective—readers who don’t care for a book because the hero is not very nice.
As a writer, my preferences are for heroes who are not too nice, but it has nothing to do with anything other than the reality of writing as I know it (meaning it might be different for other writers.) I find that when my heroes keep wanting to be really nice the book is harder to write. It takes a lot of wind out of the story. I usually get into trouble half way through the book. For me at least, it is hard if not impossible to write an alpha hero who won’t bother some readers because he is not “nice” enough.
My heroes never get planned as too nice. They just turn into too nice sometimes and get me off track. The result is a book I have to fight with, and revise. I have concluded that as I write the hero I see all his good qualities and want the reader to see them too, and to “like” him. It is always a mistake if I get seduced into doing that.
Since I do write historicals, I can get away with a bit of “not always so nice” due to all that peer arrogance mentioned above along with other historical realities. I cannot imagine trying to write a contemporary hero who is alpha but also “nice.” I have nothing but respect for contemporary romance authors in general and am glad I don’t have to be one.
So, readers, where are you on the nice question? How nice is nice enough, and how nice is too nice? Do you go to a specific subgenre for your alphas, like paranormal where it seems maybe the nice question is not as big a deal? Has your opinion on this question changed with time, along with your taste in heroes?
51 Comments on “Mr. Nice Guy”
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I’ve always liked my heroes to be alpha. The problem with too nice right off the bat, which I’m sure you’ve found, is that this leaves nowhere for the hero to go in the book.
Like you said, you can make heroes less nice in a historical context because it’s a different world, and men had to be pretty rough to survive it.
Paranormal works too because a beast is a beast. Not his fault.
Contemporary is tough. I’m wondering if this is why the military hero is so popular of late. It’s understandable for a Navy SEAL to be over the top alpha. He’d have to be.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 9:26 am.
Yeah,seals and special ops and firemen and others who have to be alpha to survive are popular in romance. I never thought that having the heroes in those roles was one way to signal uber alpha,but it makes sense. I guess I am wondering if readers, on accepting he is uber alpha, give him some slack in the nice department
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 9:44 am.
I find that it depends on my mood and the context. If I am after a funny story, like some of Julia Quinns, “nice” is fine. Put if I am after more suspenseful storylines I definitely want over the top Alpha. For example Devil from the Cynsters by Stephanie Laurens.(one of the top characters for arrogance I have come across)
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 9:36 am.
I wonder if my friend’s dissatisfaction is just a matter of where her mood is now. She clearly is looking for more alpha than she is finding.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 9:46 am.
I like my heroes to be alpha, too, especially with historicals. Most men of ‘quality’ were raised with a certain arrogance in their station, and they were expected to be a little cocky and sometimes rude. However, I also like my heroine to be a little bit of a wrench in their plans so to speak. I like the heroines to be strong and smart themselves. Usually, when the hero starts off as being the alpha, it gives them room to become a little softer at the end of the book when all the pieces fall into place with the heroine. I would like to think I would be the smart and plucky heroine that would try to outsmart the gentry hero…I think that’s why I like them.
Love the paranormal heroes too. There are so many ways that you can tweak a hero to work in a paranormal environment that doesn’t apply to other genres because there are rather odd extenuating circumstances. I really enjoy reading these books because they are already out of the box, so there isn’t the ‘standard formula’ they have to follow.
Contemporary is a completely different animal. Of course, there can be an alpha male that is a complete jerk that manages to find his life turned upside-down by a woman and it changes the way he looks at the world. However, it would be rare in this day and age (if someone is ugly on the inside, they usually stay that way), and not necessarily believable.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 9:38 am.
I agree that contemporary is tough. I am trying to remember just how I have reacted to some of those heroes, and if I thought they were too nice. I think I get into a different mind set when I read them, because they are too close to reality and as you say, there is such a fine line between alpha and jerk in the modern setting. This is why good contemporary authors awe me.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 9:49 am.
I like heroes that are alphas and suck it up because honestly, there is nothing quite as annoying as a man who just whinges and carries on like a pork chop when something doesn’t go his way. I do believe that you can get some heroes that are not only alpha males but also diamonds in the rough. They might seem to have a gruff exterior but not only are they nice but they are willing to protect those that they care about.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 9:46 am.
I am with you on guys who whine (in fiction or otherwise
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 12:52 pm.
Me too! No whiners!!!! Whining is not heroic!
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 8:28 pm.
And, as the thought just struck me… a book wouldn’t be a book if SOMETHING wasn’t going the hero’s way. By nature of a story, there has to be some kind of conflict. So I think the alpha question comes into play when you start looking at the kind of conflict, and how they deal with it.
Explaining this might take several paragraphs… I’m just going to hope that the general majority of you understand where I’m going with this
Posted on July 19, 2012 at 6:30 am.
I have had the same thoughts. You don’t get the alpha males in books these days like you used to. I like my males to be alpha. I think that is why I love medievals so much, although it seems to be a hard genre to find anymore, unless you have access to a UBS.
I find when a hero starts off as nice, it lacks some of the passion I like in my books. I also like to see my heroes evolve and I think that is hard to see when the hero starts off as nice.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 10:38 am.
Interesting that you mention medievals. My old medievals have accumulated a LOT of “he wasn’t very nice” comments online in recent years. I guess maybe they were not in a typical way, but there was usually a good reason for it (in their minds at least)
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 12:54 pm.
For me, in order for a book to be interesting a character has to start from a place of imperfection and find some catalyst that makes them want to be “better”. For my heroes, I like to start them out as too angry, too arrogant, too wounded, too alpha, then work them toward being more civilized. Not totally civilized, though. *g*
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 11:16 am.
I adore your heros, Suzanne! Your books always make me happy; I’ve got every single one!
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 11:17 am.
Ah, thanks, Cheri!!
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 12:02 pm.
I’m with you on all of that, Suzie.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 12:56 pm.
i to read historical and contempory also like the hero to be alpa male they seem be the most romanic
Posted on July 11, 2012 at 9:16 am.
I’m fine if a hero is ‘nice’ so long as the plot keeps the story going. Maybe if a hero is ‘nice’ the author should throw some difficulty his way and see how he deals with it.
I always read historical romances, so a little arrogance mixed with compassion would do fine with me. I also like tortured souls…. I like it when the guy shows some vulnerability but does his best to mask it.
I find that I DO get annoyed when the hero isn’t nice enough, or even downright unlikable. I’ve read a few like that, and I put the book down right away. If I can’t like the characters, there’s no way I’d be able to understand their actions or thoughts, and therefore, there’s no point in reading it. The same goes for the heroine… if she’s too naive, gossipy, or mean to others, I can’t get into the book. A little bit of those qualities is fine so long as the character develops and learns from their mistakes, but if it’s so overdone that the hero or heroine make me mad, then I’m done with the book. And if it happens with more than one book by the same author, I generally don’t buy their books any longer. Thankfully, that’s not happened with any of the Goddesses! You all are fabulous authors
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 11:16 am.
I hear you. As a writer it is such a fine line, and it is really clear that the line moves for each reader. I have pretty much given up figuring out if there is a “right” line.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 12:58 pm.
Hi – I prefer alpha heros – alphas in my opinion have more room for growth – its hard IMHO for a “beta” hero to grow as much or have as much of a journey as an alpha who has to learn how to accommodate the needs of his love. Betas are great as secondary characters as they offer balance to the alphas.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 11:18 am.
I have written a couple of betas. They are a real challenge for the reasons you say. Although inside every beta is an alpha, given the right circumstances.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:00 pm.
One of my favorite “mixtures” of nice and not-so-nice is where the hero is arrogant, cocky, or rude at the beginning of the novel to everyone. Heroine sees that, notes it, and ignores him until he shows her that he can be nice.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm.
Sometimes they just need a reason to think about how they are acting and how it is being perceived! That is the heroine’s job.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:02 pm.
I like alpha male heroes. A little arrogance is nice, a commanding presence, but I don’t want him so arrogant that it seems no one in their right mind would ever fall in love with him. Commanding out of protectiveness, not just because he can. Unless of course the heroine can put him in his place pretty quickly (I’m thnking of The Grand Sophy by Georgette Heyer, and The Lion’s Lady by Julie Garwood – both heroines very quickly befuddle their domineering heroes). Every good hero needs a character arc after all.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 12:41 pm.
I love the befuddled alpha! What? She isn’t just falling in line? EVERYONE falls in line for me!
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:03 pm.
I wish there was a ‘like’ button here.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 2:00 pm.
Madeline, as a reader I prefer my guys not too nice – I’ve always felt more for a rogue than for a proper gentleman (they are soooo boring!).
As a writer myself, and trying to portray people like they are in real life, I find myself at odds with my editor, as she wants my heroes to be more ‘nice’ than I make them. Why can’t a guy be selfish for a while, until he realizes he’s at fault?? Or arrogant, …, you name it?
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 12:55 pm.
I think an editor telling me to make him more nice would be a problem. I know there are some publishers who push this. Maybe they are reading those reader comments? I, on the other hand, have an editor who calls me when I go too nice. She uses the word wimpy, which gets my attention!
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:04 pm.
I want a nice guy with a little burn around his edges. I don’t want someone who is a total “yes dear” guy nor do I enjoy a “cuz I’m the MAN” type. A couple of good examples of the type of hero or even regular non-fictional person would be a new favorite character, Longmire or a longtime favorite, Micheal Weston on Burn Notice.Both are perfectly nice guys who are realists,sometimes you have to be not nice.They also treat the women as equals and as if they truly believe we have brains. That’s what I love about the goddesses, your heroes think so as well.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:00 pm.
I like it when a hero realizes, to his astonishment, that ther heroine is his match in the brains department. Especially if he always assumed he was fairly superior there.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:06 pm.
Madeline I think that assumption just naturally comes with the dangly part; when everyone knows a woman is smart enough to keep hers tucked safely out of the way.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:34 pm.
LOL!
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm.
Nice, not so nice – as long as its a good story, well written – it’s all good to me.
Jennifer Crusie does great contemporary heros who can get away with nice-ish from the get go.
Yes, my tastes have changed. I’m thinking most of us don’t long for a return of those uber-alpha males of bodice-rippers. I can’t imagine going back to the types of books we read in the 80s.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:06 pm.
I am wondering if some readers find my book The Protector of that ilk now, even though I could name slightly earlier books that make Morvan of The Proector seem downright sensitive in comparison. The views of Morvan, and how mixed they have become in just 10 years, is one of the inspirations for this blog. There have been some pretty heated “I love him/I hate him” posts online about him,I recently discovered.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:10 pm.
Oops, thanks for that reminder. I need to read your earliest books to finish you backlist. I’m not the best fan girl.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 2:39 pm.
Alpha is fine. I don’t like the hero to be too much of a grump,or too mean, but he has to be a better person with the heroine. Or she has to make him want to be a better person. Does that even make sense? I don’t like nice all the way through, but nice enough. Whether that means he’s military or doctor it doesn’t really matter. I’m reading to escape the nastiness of the world! As long as a book provides me with that I am happy.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 1:17 pm.
Alphas – but it’s a fine line to walk. You don’t want a jerk who doesn’t realize that he’s a jerk and refuses to change. You want that alpha to look at his heroine, and realize that he wants to be a better man because of her.
Military alphas in books make me laugh. It’s like they’re caricatures of men. Every military guy I’ve ever met, including tons of Marines and a Seal, aren’t that alpha, but they all are alphas. I think that if they were as alpha as they are portrayed in books, that our military would be in a world of hurt.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 2:58 pm.
You’re so right, Madeline–it’s a really fine line, and I just am never sure if I’ve walked it. I really like alpha heroes, but they’re becoming more “sensitive” these days.
I wonder if what readers want are heroes who are sexually dangerous (dangerous to their peace of mind, their good girl ways, their goals or futures) but not domineering of them otherwise. I don’t know. I really do like a hero who grumbles–not a whiny hero, but one who grumbles, if that makes sense. Maybe because I’m married to a curmudgeon.
Mostly, I think I want a hero who will fight to the death for the heroine. That’s the alpha part for me. And one who won’t hesitate to thumb his nose at society when it suits him.
Betas are hard. I had one to write not too long ago, and it was really hard. No one accused him of being too nice, but I felt like he was.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 5:03 pm.
I’ve loved all your heros, Sabrina! You know how to write them so that the reader always falls for them.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 7:09 pm.
This is a perfect discussion for me at the moment. I’m in the middle of a contemporary where the hero is definitely alpha, but has to curb some of his tendencies because he wants the heroine (who owns her own company) to work together on a project. That falls through, but now he wants to take over her whole company. He also wants her in bed, and she has no clue he’s after more than her personally. A battle is brewing . . . and when she finds out his ulterior motives, there’ll be hell to pay.
I personally like to see an alpha taken down a peg or two, at least where the heroine is concerned. If he doesn’t recognize her strengths and compromise, what kind of future could they have together?
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 5:32 pm.
I just finished Danelle Harmon’s de Monteforte series (soooo good!). The hero in the first book was sooo sweet I absolutely loved him. I actually found his character pretty different from what I read. Although i have to admit I liked the oldest arrogant brother the best…I think heroes are not exactly nicer but less forceful. I love snobby and dominant, but I don’t lke mean.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 5:48 pm.
This is the question– I don’t equate alphas with “not nice”, although I suppose it is easy to go there. I like to think that I have writtn nice enough alphas, lol. Anyway, I am struggling with this right now in my wip, so it is a timely discussion for me.
Posted on July 11, 2012 at 9:58 am.
Every story is different, of course, but I tend to like beta males who have to work to appear alpha. Case in point: Faramir versus Aragorn in the “Lord of the Rings” series. While Faramir may not be as confident or as naturally alpha as Aragorn, he also wouldn’t leave his lady lying on her knees as she ate his dust (I’m going by the book here, not the movie). One of my biggest complaints about the films was that they tried to make Faramir more like his alpha brother instead of showing the beta guy rise up as a noble leader and lover.
The problem with alphas is that if they show too much of their arrogance, I have serious doubts about their ability to be a true happily ever after sort of man. Give me the beta guy who has to fight his beta tendencies to earn the love of his lady over the alpha who acts like his lady’s love is his right any day.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 7:14 pm.
I’ve thought about this all day, and even read a book. I think it is a fine balance. We all want that alpha male to go out, kill it, and bring it home. At the same time we want the sensitive guy that that will cuddle with us. So I guess it depends on the story. I understand where your friend is coming from. I’ve wanted to read something a little “grittier” lately. I haven’t been able to find it. I’ve also wanted to read about a strong silent type, but well, characters not talking at all doesn’t make for a good story. I think it is a delicate balance to strike, and one that is very difficult to strike. Good luck with this conundrum.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 7:55 pm.
Having written a “silent” type, I can say that it is very difficult. Although I have a character in my current series who probably comes across to women as the strong, silent type. I have made sure he is not TOO silent, though, in looking forward to when I do his story.
Posted on July 11, 2012 at 10:00 am.
It really is a tough line to walk between Alpha Male – Nice Guy – and Alpha-hole. And I think the desire to show the reader the hero’s good points can blur those lines tremendously. I read somewhere that a write must discover a character’s greatest asset and make it their greatest weakness. Arrogance can be a strength in many situations and then again it can be a weakness. The key is to integrate the two without going too far in either direction. If anyone figures out how to do that let me know!!!
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 9:11 pm.
Often it’s the hero’s interaction with his peers or other secondary characters that provides ‘nice’ moments. Whether reading historicals or Sci-fi, I love strong heroes, but strong outsides leave lots of room for confused insides. The mask a hero wears, whether because of expectations (you ARE a duke, your grace) or personal choice (give the man some space, people!) may be diametrically opposed to the real person living behind the facade. When said hero finally realizes his heroine is not deceived by the mask and loves him anyway, he can finally relax–at least while with her–and be strong through and through.
Posted on July 10, 2012 at 11:02 pm.
How well you put that!
Posted on July 11, 2012 at 10:01 am.
I really enjoyed reading your take on the hero’s you write about. I have read books written by 6 of you and I have enjoyed all the hero’s. My favorite is a tough guy, rugged, handsome who knows what he thinks he wants and is willing to make a few adjustments to make sure he gets it. Thank you for your gift to us readers.
Posted on July 11, 2012 at 1:02 am.
Very interesting! Yes, I like to see my hero on the edgier side. I also prefer them to be visually a little more rugged. There is also a tendency now a day to create a more pretty man. What do I mean by this? Men, heroes are too pretty looking, visually. What happen to the strong, imposing, virile man. Have you noticed? They men look to soft and too handsome. For example, I love A&E’s new series Longmire. Robert Taylor is a good looking man! Rough around the edges, gravely voice, melt worthy. He could save me anytime, and when he smile.:o) Lou Diamond Phillips is no slouch either. The heroes don’t seem to have any facial hair anymore. Where are the mustaches, goatees and beards. Ah well!
Posted on July 11, 2012 at 3:02 pm.
Very good written information. It will be helpful to anybody who employess it, including myself. Keep doing what you are doing – i will definitely read more posts.
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:58 pm.